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Old 12-30-11, 08:05 PM   #1
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Default The Great Cannabis Debate

It seems the other thread was closed but we were having an active discussion about the effects of Cannabis/anti-movement of decriminalisation.

I believe all the anti-Pot people out there should educate themselves before making a commitment of saying "No" to decriminalisation.

Old thread: http://tehparadox.com/forum/f11/lega...sales-3700888/
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Old 12-30-11, 09:02 PM   #2
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Just fcukin' legalize it already!

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Old 12-30-11, 10:28 PM   #3
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I truly resent the statements:
"...should educate themselves..." and
"...the opposition are obviously ignorant of scientific and historically accurate information."

I oppose legalization and do not fall into those categories!

I speak from personal, direct experience. The many people I have known that smoked cannabis have proven it to be a "gateway" drug. Some have shown the side effects of "very heavy" use, permanent memory loss and an inability to concentrate. My brother is one such, another is given later as a work-mate. Both, if awake, were "stoned". (not an exaggeration!)

I went through 7 years of absolute Hell with my second wife. She injected crank, was willing to, and did, try any drug. She started by smoking pot. Her parents grew and used it, so she saw nothing wrong. The many "low-life" "scum" (O.K. biased) I was exposed to started by smoking cannabis.

I have never been in so many fights, subjected to charges of attempted murder, assault etc. as during those 7 years. I was stolen from, had property destroyed, had a young daughter exposed to corrupting influences. As even those that smoked pot or used heavier drugs seemed not to care about exposing young children to these criminal acts. One such used her 3 year old as a mule by stuffing pot in the baby, in smuggling it into prison.

I have known only one person that only smoked pot using no other drug. This person displayed extremely poor judgment on and off work. At work he would forget tasks and just laugh it off, "don't be so serious man!" He was very easy to talk into doing the things that eventually led to his being fired.

I worked in the prison system for 25 years. In those years I participated, as staff, in "Scared-Straight" type programs. I listened to the many young people excuse smoking pot with: "everyone else does it." "its no worse than alcohol." "its not like I'm taking hard stuff, man." "why should I get some job when I get much more selling."

There are many other examples. I believe I have validated my view. I will concede medical use can be beneficial. The problem arises when so many doctors prescribe pot for bogus reasons, thereby abusing this "liberal" system. (not meaning the political left.)

Last edited by MacFalic; 12-30-11 at 10:32 PM. Reason: minor corrections
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Old 12-30-11, 10:51 PM   #4
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Nope. Weed =/= gateway drug. The people who attest that it is would have gotten into hard drugs anyway, regardless of whether or not they smoked weed, they just have a predisposition to screwing themselves up. What you're saying is essentially the same thing as saying that Call of Duty makes people wanna kill each other in real life. It's absurd.

You talk about side effects of "heavy use," I hope you're aware that you can die if you drink too much water at once. Literally everything is dangerous in this life when used too much. Weed won't kill you, but if you smoke too much of it, yes, there are side effects, as with everything else.

I have been smoking pot since I was 13. I'm 23 now, finishing university and my GPA is 3.76. I don't smoke a lot, but I do go through half a joint in a day, I smoke about an hour before I go to sleep. The US Cancer Society has admitted to pot's medicinal benefits (not cures), such as helping stem the growth of tumors, relieving migraines, helping patients with eye problems, eases pain caused by multiple sclerosis and severe glaucoma, etc. You can find all that online if you so choose.

You say you've validated your views, but all I heard was useless circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that proves nothing. I mean, do you really believe that your spouse was put on her path by weed? Really? I can guarantee that if weed wasn't available, it would have been painkillers or alcohol. If weed is decriminalized, do you really think you'd be allowed to smoke while working? No, it will be regulated same as alcohol - you can't drive high, or work high, etc.

You're against it - fine. But don't act as if you have somehow made a strong argument to support your position. Don't bring up conjecture under the guise of facts, straw-men arguments are very easy to break down and invalidate. Reading what you wrote, I'm confident that I know a hell of a lot more about weed and its effects and properties than you do - so maybe you should do a little research and "educate yourself" after all.

That is all.

Last edited by HeavyGrimm; 12-30-11 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 12-30-11, 11:41 PM   #5
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Actually, most people who get into harder drugs smoke cigarettes or drink beer before they ever smoke marijuana. So if you subscribe to the "gateway theory", tobacco and alcohol are the real gateway drugs, along with items that can be stolen from parents medicine cabinets and over the counter medicine that can be misused.

I think MacFalic just had the experience of living around scumbag criminals who happened to smoke marijuana, and he somehow thinks that marijuana is the cause. Take out your magic wand, and make all marijuana disappear along with all other illegal drugs, and MacFalic would have been around a bunch of degenerates doing the same things, only with alcohol, oxycontin, etc.

Marijuana has been in use in human society forever, most likely much longer than when man finally discovered how to create alcohol.


MacFalic: I suggest you crusade against alcohol. I won't say marijuana is good for you or some kind of vitamin, but it is relatively benign compared to even legal drugs. It has recently been shown that alcohol is responsible for more crime, misery, death etc. than all other drugs COMBINED.

Last edited by oohah; 12-30-11 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 12-30-11, 11:59 PM   #6
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Just read the other thread and can understand why it was closed... so much drama and animosity. This is obviously a touchy subject. Like most in my generation, whether they admit it or not, I've smoked pot occasionally and never moved on to heavier drugs, but did try cocaine once and didn't like it; same for some mild speed way back when. Most, but not all, of my friends, acquaintances, and relatives also didn't crash and burn.

My biggest concern is that the super-high THC content marijuana of today is many times more potent then the reefer we used to smoke during the early-mid 1970s. I guess the real problem is that so many people are prone to addiction. Then there's the driving under the influence issue, which is definitely a big problem. Not sure how a pot buzz compares with driving after drinking, statistically speaking. But like someone else mentioned before, pot smokers tend to drive much slower and do have to concentrate more. That to me means the effects are more debilitating, but haven't a clue if that results in more accidents or the severity of the accidents.

It seems to me that the real problem is that people everywhere can't seem to get through life without alcohol and/or drugs of some kind. So many adults are hopelessly addicted to prescription drugs like anti-depressants, anti-psychotic, or even sleeping aids. And we're all addicted to stimulants as benign as caffeine, whether we realize it or not. Yep, the real problem is a weakness in the human psyche, or perhaps worse, that no culture or society that I'm aware of has ever been able to conquer this weakness in all of us Homo sapiens.

With that in mind I wish everyone GOOD LUCK and a very HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Over and out...

Last edited by PhoenixBSD; 12-31-11 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 12-30-11, 11:59 PM   #7
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Why herb will probably never be legal is drug dealers and Law Enforcement want to stay illegal because without that there is no profit to be had. People can grow it in their backyard and no $1200 in "drug education classes" piss tests and such. Our justice system runs on cannabis convictions because law enforcement is totally inept at catching criminals that actually have victims, hence why it changed from peace officer to law enforcement in the first place. Just like everything else it is all about the money.
This debate is about as painful and pointless as slamming my ankle in a car door. Either way as stated happy new year to all and be safe!

Edit: Be afraid of the newest gateway drugs, pixie sticks and smarties! Candy ban of 2012 follows the election of Mitt!

Last edited by lazzyie; 12-31-11 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 12-30-11, 11:59 PM   #8
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First off, I stated "I speak from personal, direct experience." not conjecture.

Second, your analogy, Call of Duty\abusing drugs, is a non-sequitur. The two are worlds apart.

Third, "...regardless of whether or not they smoked weed, they just have a predisposition to screwing themselves up." "I can guarantee that if weed wasn't available, it would have been painkillers or alcohol." This is a serious charge, either show some type of proof or drop your conjecture. As you have stated it, I know of no scientific or repeatable, blind study tests showing this.

Fourth, your "...side effects of "heavy use," is "singing to the choir". We seem to be in agreement, why argue this point. Take your time and slowly read what I typed. By stating, "...Both, if awake, were "stoned". (not an exaggeration!)" connotes extreme excess.

Fifth, "I have been smoking pot since I was 13." proves my point. If children are exposed to negative behavior, in this case(agree or not) criminal, they emulate same. Please inform me in which world it is O.K. for a child(13=child) to commit criminal behavior.

Sixth, Your GPA is meaningless to this argument. I attended college in my 30's, while working full-time, taking 16 semester units, earned the Dean's List once, and the Presidents List 4 times. Big deal, yawn. This is because you only provide yourself as an example. You could be unique. Who knows!?

Seventh, I stated, "I will concede medical use can be beneficial." Again, we agree, so why argue the point?

Eighth, by declaring, "but all I heard was useless circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that proves nothing." you discount my experience with a great many people. I did mention I worked in the prison system for 25 years. That alone refers to a great many inmates I became acquainted with. Evidence is evidence, I saw little to none in your arguments. In lieu of valid tests, my "anecdotal evidence" is valid, as you have provided no real evidence to invalidate it. Please pardon me for being conservative of my experience, as I don't really care to provide a complete list. Seeing as to how you would, most likely, label it as even more "anecdotal evidence".

Ninth, just where did I use conjecture? I stated facts as I know\experienced them. The evidence I provided, is valid if only to justify MY opinion(which I believed I was doing.) While we are at it, please provide an example of where I used a "straw-man" argument. I did not misrepresent anything in my post. I used proper rules of argument. I provided my opinion, presented evidence to back up same.

Tenth and finally, youngster, you have no idea of my mania for research. It might interest you to learn that I have spent considerable effort towards researching articles, scientific and not, pro and con, of this issue. In all that, I have not found any "REAL", "VALID", or properly conducted results to disprove anything I have stated. In fact such does not exist for either side. Most, if not all, is the same as you claim of my post "circumstantial and anecdotal".

Your turn...(notice I have in no way discounted your opinion or insulted you, as you did me.)

Last edited by MacFalic; 12-31-11 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 12-31-11, 12:01 AM   #9
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Quote: Originally Posted by MacFalic View Post
The many people I have known that smoked cannabis have proven it to be a "gateway" drug.
Not in my experience.

I've smoked weed for over a decade -- bongs, joints, blunts, you name it. I never once had the desire to move on to other (more potent) narcotics, e.g., cocaine, heroin, meth etc. What does that tell you? Personally, I think that the "pot is a gateway drug" claim is just another dumb excuse not to 'decriminalize' it.

Quote:
Some have shown the side effects of "very heavy" use, permanent memory loss and an inability to concentrate.
I don't know about "permanent memory loss", but heavy use over an extended period of time does seem to affect short-term memory. However, it should be noted that I used to be a heavy drinker as well. Alcohol may have something to do with it... Again, I'm speaking from my own personal experience.

Last edited by bleedlikeme; 12-31-11 at 12:30 AM. Reason: fix quote
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Old 12-31-11, 01:46 AM   #10
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I don't think weed is a gateway drug, I do think for many it totally ruins their lives though.

I know people who when we were kids (including me to an extent, but thankfully only a minor one) who pretty much ruined their lives from smoking loads of weed at such a young age. Simply put whatever they excelled at they gave up on to instead chill, smoke and in may cases sell.

I know people that started smoking as adults, had addictive personalities, possible psychotic tendencies and ruined their lives. One such person lodges at my mother house, he smokes on his own in her garage all day long, hardly ever works and is totally paranoid. He, like many others I know did not used to be like this but became like it because of very marginal traits combined with a load of weed.

I also know some people who smoke a bit and have normal lives but they are far outnumbered by the others.

From observation and experience I would say the one great gateway drug is alcohol, combine this with some drug addict offering you something and you have the winner for the root of so many peoples addiction. Alcohol combined with/and being a dumb kid make up for 99% of illegal drug addicts in my opinion.

Regardless of if you legalise weed or de-legalise alcohol/tobacco these things will not change. The only reason I might agree with legalisation of weed is to stop unnecessary wasting of police and court time.

There are so many stupid legal drugs already, I don't think it will make much of a difference if there is one more. Those that have a predilection toward violence, paranoia and addiction in general will have those tendencies magnified/brought out by all these existing stupid drugs anyway.

The pharmaceutical industries, legal status and over taxation of alcohol and tobacco make me sick to the pit of my stomach.

I've knocked a lot on the head but I will still be drunk and smoking a lot of cigarettes this new years eve :(

A bit of comic relief below...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGKhehLKVWY
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Old 12-31-11, 02:36 AM   #11
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"Cherry picked" from Wikipedia's definition of anecdotal evidence:
Accounts of direct personal experience are commonly equated to anecdotal evidence where the evidence is anecdote, hearsay or represents a conclusion deduced from generalisation. Unlike anecdotal evidence, the reliability of accounts of personal experience is normally capable of assessment for legal proceedings.
(bold my edit)
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Old 12-31-11, 03:10 AM   #12
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I'm Dutch, I can get weed legal next door. Here are my experiences:

People have smoked Pot for 1000s of years, and will continue to do so. Legalizing it will greatly hurt the pot crime ring.

weed can have many unhealthy consequences I've seen people trip and go crazy with red eyes. I also saw family dying from long cancer, after intensive smoking. Or drunk people hitting random civilians outside a club.

If you are against pot legalization, first quit alcohol and nicotine altogether then start talking. Like I said, people will smoke pot anyways, legal or illegal. Making it legal will give the local government a better grip on the pot market.

That are just my cents, all from personal experience
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Old 12-31-11, 03:37 AM   #13
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Americans can definitely learn a few things from the Dutch :) I've been to Holland several times during the 90s (to visit friends) and always ended up having a blast while I was there.

BTW, is it true tourists are banned from Dutch coffee shops? It wasn't like that a decade ago.
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Old 12-31-11, 03:41 AM   #14
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Weed as a gateway drug, does it make you do harder drugs or is it that its easily attainable? Truly that is the question. Its a chicken or the egg argument.

My 2 cents: its easy to get.

I think that it should also be stated that doing any drug, legal or illegal, at an early age is never a good idea. Your brain and body have not fully developed.

Quote:
There are so many stupid legal drugs already, I don't think it will make much of a difference if there is one more. Those that have a predilection toward violence, paranoia and addiction in general will have those tendencies magnified/brought out by all these existing stupid drugs anyway.
QFT

@bleedlikeme: California has :)
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