[tehWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gandolph13

I asked if she believed in electricity, and she said yes. I then proposed that was blind faith because she couldn't actually see it

I'm going to have to disagree with you Gandolph and your lady-friends inability to properly answer you. I'm sure, like me, you believe in electricity, however one can see electricity on a rather regular basis as well as see its effects. No need for blind faith.

Lightning, for example is one. Auroras would be another, which are little more than energetic electrons, all of which happen to not be moving in a totally uniform direction. Lesser-known examples would include: volcanic eruptions, hurricanes and snowstorms.

In truth, electricity is not a 'thing' to be observed. It is simply a difference of potential between two points. As long as the difference exists, and there is a proper, closed path between those two points, it can be said 'electricity' exists and the difference will attempt to equalize as long as electrons can move readily from one of the points to another. Electricity may also 'exist' by virtue of potential difference.

So it could be said that one can 'see' electricity in that one sees electrons move (giving off visible light) as potential difference attempts to balance. It can also be said one can 'see' electricity in that a potential difference may be measured and rendered graphically using an o-scope.

Here are some visible examples of electricity.

From left to right, top to bottom:

• High-voltage filaments, plasma lab
• Terrestrial lightning
• Solar filaments - Electrical discharges from the Sun's surface.
  
• Auroral discharges around Saturn's poles
• Ant nebula -Electrical discharges along a star's magnetic axis
• Galactic jet -Electrical discharges from an active galactic nucleus.

Here is another example, Tesla-approved.




As for proving the case of the Divine, you show the effect, but no observable or measurable cause. It is only your own personal belief that all the varied forms in the Universe come from a divine source. But i'd be happy to debate it further with you.

Personally, I feel if something is out there that is divine, we, as humans, most likely will not comprehend it until we get there to greet it. And even then, only maybe.

[deEVOLUTION]

to me religion is completely illogical and ludicris. not to mention i have no use for it in my life. also after doing research on the history of relgion i find it to be even more of a joke. i dont think its ironic that in so many 3rd world countries religion is far more prevalent than education.

[Gandolph13]

As an electronics engineer, and having studied 2/3 of my electrical trades, I know electricity itself can't be seen, only the plasma ignited by it.
The average household wires hide the current, there is no visible evidence of the actual electricity itself.
That was part of my response when she mentioned lightning itself, we can not see it directly, only the effect it has on things it passes through.

To answer a question by Vosszaa, I don't believe in God as a single being, but I do believe in a supreme creator, and also believe that God is within everyone of us, it's a collective term linking every living thing within the universe, and indeed the universe itself.

[vosszaa]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gandolph13

To answer a question by Vosszaa, I don't believe in God as a single being, but I do believe in a supreme creator, and also believe that God is within everyone of us, it's a collective term linking every living thing within the universe, and indeed the universe itself.

So you're saying that, you do believe in Adam and Eve, and Homo sapiens sapiens doesn't evolve from the great ape?

And what is so-called "supreme creator" that you mention?

For me, i do believe that human is evolve from the great ape and earth created from big bang. Why? Because there are evidences.

Also "and also believe that God is within everyone of us, it's a collective term linking every living thing within the universe, and indeed the universe itself."This sentence is sounds very absurd. GOD is everything?!?! That doesnt make any sense. If you say GOD is everything then I can say that GOD is nothing too.

[spart_]

Religion is Control

What you must understand is that this is not my opinion, this is fact!

To answer your question, Scientists' goal is to gathering as much knowledge, finding the truth. Religion is not truth, it is a system of intellectual perversion.

[vosszaa]

Quote: Originally Posted by spart_

Religion is Control

I understand that but why we still need religion to control when we already have laws and code of conduct?

[spart_]

Quote: Originally Posted by vosszaa

I understand that but why we still need religion to control when we already have laws and code of conduct?

Laws are a method of controlling people socially and equally. Religion is a psychological method of control and it divides us, we don't need it.

[Arizona]

Metaphor of the world to separate the believers from the non-believers:

Metaphor: Life and the world around us is a book.

The non-believer (n-b) sees sheets of white paper with ink patterns on it. The believer sees structure in the ink patterns. The n-b says it's random. The believer tries to decipher, the nb starts to study the ink and paper quality. The believer (often only partially) 'learns the code' and starts reading. The n-b looks for the factory where the book was made (big-bang). The believer searches for it's author.

Both work and deal with the same book (or world around us). Both are right in their findings! Both somehow view the other's approach as limited.

As Gandolph explained, I believe the same: If you don't see God in all, you won't see Him at all. And if you ever see a man with a beard sitting on a cloud, you can conclude The Almighty has a great sense of humor.

[Arizona]

As many of you here my background is also Christian. It wasn't so much the evolution that made me search on (great thread WillowSun) but the unfairness of hell and some other related principles. The Christian God is way to human for my taste. So I moved on and with studying the eastern views (Hinduism and Buddhism) and I can only say that re-reading the new testament with in mind what I learned: Oh My God!. So much more of what Jesus teaches in the New testament makes sense once you have a different reference than just the Christian doctrines…

I think that anyone who searches for God with integrity will find Him. But if you're stuck with some of the paradoxes of the Christian teachings like I did, I can only strongly encourage you to read on beyond the doctrines and learn for yourselves. Out of books, forums (even like these), talks with friends and family, and maybe the most important one, yourself. Learn what does it for you and what not. What sets you off, what makes you pissed, what do you admire, what do you like, and why, what do certain things do to you etc. etc.

The journey towards God (imo He's residing both outside and within you) is the greatest epic all, right there for all of us to live.

[Mandy1984]

Religion breeds extremism. it leads to black and white perception, universal ethical laws, fundamentalism. America fights religious extremism.

it fought political extremism (Nazism, Dictatorship, Communism) in the 20th century. 21th century is a war against religion (although wars relating to religion were abundant in the past). Look how many countries adapt Islam and also look at the biblical laws they have. 90% of the middle east it Muslim that adapts some sort of biblical laws.


Scientist can be extremist or simply try to prove god using physics. proving god , using physics doesnt prove God, but proves that there is a "thing" that cant be explained by science..
Example:
Dark Matter, cant be explained by scientists it is something that replaces atoms and shows unexplained behavior.

here is a doc i uploaded:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfSuOnUywMk

Overall, scientist like to prove and experiment with stuff.. their truth is less certain and 100% valid. Therefore, they arent so deterministic in their beliefs

[L99]

Quote: Originally Posted by spart_

Religion is Control

What you must understand is that this is not my opinion, this is fact!

To answer your question, Scientists' goal is to gathering as much knowledge, finding the truth. Religion is not truth, it is a system of intellectual perversion.

I'd be careful with that manner of argument. Because you state an opinion in a declaratory manner does not make your statement of opinion into fact. It is your opinion and your strong contention that "religion is control" but to sincere believers, I'm sure they would ardently protest. Whether or not one considers any religion too controlling is a matter of opinion. A factual statement regarding any particular religion would detail the rules, requirements or canon of said religion. A factual statement should not make judgments. With a declaration such as "Religion is Control", it is patently clear it's an opinion. You believe it's control--or too controlling. I may even agree with you, but that does not make it a factual statement. It is an opinion and you are free to have such an opinion. But let's admit that it's an opinion, and not a statement of fact.

The more interesting question to me is: Why are not all (100%) scientists atheists? How are there scientists who are religious?

These questions really intrigue me.

[Buddha89]

Quote: Originally Posted by L99

The more interesting question to me is: Why are not all (100%) scientists atheists? How are there scientists who are religious?

These questions really intrigue me.

Yeah i know! I have one friend who's a Quantum Physicist who is a Catholic. I asked him if religion conflicts with science in his life.
He smiled and said "having faith in God is what keeps me researching. I wanna prove that God does exist in some way or another."

Was an interesting conversation =]

[Arizona]

Quote: Originally Posted by spart_

Religion is Control
What you must understand is that this is not my opinion, this is fact!

Quote: Originally Posted by Mandy1984

Religion breeds extremism. it leads to black and white perception, universal ethical laws, fundamentalism.

It appears some people here still live with the limited view to blame religion for being and causing things where religion obviously is only a tool. In the end no more then a hammer. It is men who USE religion to so conceal their real reasons of greed to fight wars. It is men who USE religion to dominate masses who are looking for answers related to life. It is men who USE religion to act extreme and so conceal their own insecurities. Religion itself is not good or bad. It is only a tool.

Just like sports. Sports do not cause hooligans. Sports are simple a means or a tool to either relax after a day of work, or to ventilate frustration about ones own discomfort towards life and project that on other people being stupid for supporting the other team.

In the end it's all the people and only the people that can be blamed. If at all. Because as Jesus said at the difficult moment: "Father, forgive them because they don't know what they're doing."

Come'on folks! Let's start 'knowing' what we're doing. Let's get F%$cklng CONSCIOUS!!

[Gandolph13]

Quote: Originally Posted by vosszaa

So you're saying that, you do believe in Adam and Eve, and Homo sapiens sapiens doesn't evolve from the great ape?

And what is so-called "supreme creator" that you mention?

For me, i do believe that human is evolve from the great ape and earth created from big bang. Why? Because there are evidences.

Also "and also believe that God is within everyone of us, it's a collective term linking every living thing within the universe, and indeed the universe itself."This sentence is sounds very absurd. GOD is everything?!?! That doesnt make any sense. If you say GOD is everything then I can say that GOD is nothing too.

For me to respond further would only confuse you more. I have totally different belief systems, and don't claim to be any specific denomination, but merely say I believe in a higher power/supreme being.
I also believe Jesus was an alien, sent here to teach man to love, not kill. (there, I said it)
I believe human life on earth evolved not from the apes (science can't find the missing link because they are closing their eyes to the truth, or looking in the wrong place), but from alien species playing with a giant gene pool, and also believe everything not only on earth, but within the universe has a cosmic connection.

We are all one!