[bane666]

Quote: Originally Posted by BlueGreenRed

Personally, i feel that both parties are screwed up, but i've voted Republican based on lesser of two evils--either way, one party rule is dangerous (what we have now, btw). People who only vote along party lines are dangerous too--it essentially defeats the purpose of voting and only results in competing oligarchies (which i think we're close to having here in America). Every free person should vote independent--not based solely on party affiliation, but on their own beliefs and issues.

Education is great, but there are a lot more problems with it than money--some of the worst schools get the most money per student. Most of the problem comes from poor management, but also from the makeup of the community--it's a complex issue, partly why it hasn't been solved, nor will it be easy to do so. It would be worth doing, tho.

Communism and socialism both cause failure, tho socialism much more slowly, since it's basically a watered-down version. These systems focus entirely on money (mostly in the sense of what people don't have), rather than capitalism, which says the individual has the choice to do whatever they want with their life, and, as a result, their money (if they choose to earn any). They are cynical systems, that think the majority of people are poor and stupid and can't take care of themselves, and it's why they fail--because humans are not stupid, they know how to take care of themselves, and they will (and do) learn to scam the system. Capitalism, in it's pure form, is relatively scam proof because it is not really a "system," but is actual freedom, and as such demands that you do what's best for yourself anyway. And, the main reason Communism fails: humans need an incentive to work--take it away, and things fall apart.

Some countries have been able to find a good balance, and that's key: moderation--going purely to any one system is usually disastrous. Without some regulation, the people may be hurt, killed, etc by corporate greed, but an oppressive government would be just as bad (just look at history). The Founder's found this with the first United States; the terrible weak government basically collapsed, but they had just finished a war to escape an oppressive unitary one, so they tried a balanced one, and here we are.

But above all: remember that we live in an imperfect world, and no one side is ever 100% right, which is why these debates are a great thing. There will always be some problem, and many sides arguing or going to war over their point of view. That's why I'm glad there are many countries to choose from on this planet, and i feel that they should be able to be unique based on their population--and actually, that applies to the states, too (Texas is VERY different than Michigan). It's part of why our system is so great, it allows for diversity.

for the most part i agree with you
well said

but as i've said before I don't think socialism is a dirty word

I agree 100% that communism takes away incentives to better yourself
but pure capitalism is just as bad
a couple of years ago a friend went to Fiji (from memory it was Fiji) for a holiday and he told me that it is a pure user pays system over there
you have to pay for education
you have to pay for healthcare
and there is no unemployment benefits
in other words if you are poor you are stuffed

I agree with what you said about balance
and in my opinion thats what we have here in Australia, there is incentive to work hard and get ahead if you able and want to (and some might say if you are lucky enough)
but there is also a safety net if you need it
the world economy is constantly swinging between massive growth and and massive bust
during growth you should be able to get a head
during a bust (like now) there is always going to be unemployed, and unless you want a repeat of the great depression we need some form of social safety net.

free education helps those who are most capable and with the most drive to get a head despite there economic background
without this only the rich get educated
the rich then stay rich and the poor stay poor
too bad if the next Einstein comes from a poor part of town
free education creates opportunities for everyone
when it comes to uni here in Australia we have the HECS scheme
Higher Education Contribution Scheme
the government pays for your university education (if approved)
and you pay it back in tax if you earn over the threshold
it gives opportunity

and healthcare should be a basic human right for everyone
in some parts of the world the poor are selling their bodily organs (to survive) to the rich
some might see that as good old capitalism, I see it as criminal


some facts about minimum wage

here in Australia we have the national minimum wage of $14.31 per hour
America has just changed its minimum (federal) and is now $7.25
but before 1/01/10 the lowest of the low minimum wage in America was $2.65
that meant if you worked a 10 hr day (not including lunch break) you would get the grand total of $26.50 (FOR A TEN HOUR DAY!!!!!)
I get paid way more than that per hour
I've spent more on pizza
its criminal, and people wonder why some people turn to crime

[bane666]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

we were talking about high school. which means 9th to 12 grades. lets not get off the tangent here

no tangent
in Australia high school is year 7 to 12
not 9 to 12

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

i gave you links from my school in UK and the rational behind that system is more liberal and pro-citizen instead of pro-government. UK educational system is superior to US system..
your opinion wont change anything .. i could even go to the economics behind the US educational model. but i dont think you would like to listen

Hey I agree with you
as I've said many times in many threads on this site
"the american education system is sh!t"
no argument that the uk system is better than the USA
but if you read all of my posting you'll see that I'm from Australia
unless Australia has become part of the USA in the last couple of hours and no one told me, we are in fact 2 different countries
just thought you'd like to know!

[bane666]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

UK hasnt got regulated system. the educational system works fine!
(the government is only responsible, for some exam standards.)
but you can choose any subject you want.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this point jointbus......um...I mean kane25

But I was busy (with work etc) and wanted to do some research (which is seems you didn't) before addressing this point.

This is from wikipedia

Education in England is overseen by the Department for Children, Schools and Families and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. At a local level the local authorities take responsibility for implementing policy for public education and state schools.

And just in case you don't know what the "department for children, schools and families" is


The Department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF) is a department of the UK government responsible for issues affecting people in England up to the age of 19, including child protection and education.

So the government does oversee education in the UK

I look forward to your reply



Update
I just had the time to do a little bit more reading on the uk educational system


According to wikipedia high school in the uk is from year 7 to 13
which means I was right

and
(from wiki)
All maintained schools in England are required to follow the National Curriculum, which is made up of twelve subjects.[12] The core subjects—English, Mathematics and Science—are compulsory for all students aged 5 to 16. The other foundation subjects are compulsory at one or more Key Stages:

* Art & Design
* Citizenship
* Design & Technology
* Geography
* History
* Information & Communication Technology
* Modern Foreign Languages
* Music
* Physical Education


-Which goes along exactly with what I said
for someone who claims to have gone through the Uk educational system you don't seem to know much about it.

[bane666]

ok jointbust.....um I mean kane25, sorry I keep getting the 2 of you confused
You are not related are you?
its almost like you are the same person
but what do I know, I'm daft remember :)

on to the debate

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

why everyone are being stupid when they bring me those links , which relates to young ages.
didnt i say on previous pages that i meant high school?
grades 7-8 are also seen liberal. you have some compulsory GCSEs and other voluntary.
why do i need to hammer away at the same point for three whole pages?

I said that an 11 yr old (year 7-high school) wasn't mature enough to make mature choices
and that there should be set subjects
I went on to say that as they get older and more mature they should be given more choice with electives

you said this was crazy
that high school in the uk starts at year 9- proven incorrect
and that there is no government regulation in the uk- proven incorrect

you also said that compulsory subjects at high school, dont make sense to anybody and all your theory is garbage!

well its not my theory
its the system we have in Australia
and its the system they have in the UK (we probably copied the uk to be honest)
its also the system you say you know and praise so highly

very strange indeed

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

well, all i am going to reply to , is what was already given you before.

but before you go to the previous pages.

take a piece of paper.

put the four words on the top:
Media
Education
Corporations
Military/Government

Draw a line (continuum), at one end write totalitarian Dictatorship and at the other end write Libertarian (remember the diamond under jointbuster's sig)

jointbuster?
oh yes I remember that name.....hmmmmm....she reminds me a lot of you in fact
did you grow up in a communist county too?
wouldn't that be a coincidence?

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

try to place all the countries you know about. i guess they are: US, Australia and the information i told you about UK.

I know about more countries than those three
In fact I've know and worked with people from all over the globe
but going by the name of the thread (started by jointbuster- have you heard of her?)
the topic is western politics
unless there is a republican and democrat party in outer Mongolia that no one told me about

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

you will see that UK is more on the liberal side, cause it has more liberal education system that doesnt impose any values and allows you to learn what you want..
learning what you want at secondary school, and even more at high school, confirms the Librarian philosophy (the link i gave you). cause that policy maximizes the individuals welfare/needs/wants.

ummmmm.......when did I ever say that I believe that governments should impose their values on students?
please find the quote as I would like to see it

if you had read any of my postings (about politics) on this site you would know that I'm very liberal (left wing) minded

I believe politics and religion should be left out of schools
with the exception of a subject like politics- covering the political system as a whole and not favouring any one belief system, as well as world political systems
and comparative religion- covering information about, but not preaching, the major (and maybe a few minor) world religions
and both of these subjects should be electives in later high school


but that doesn't change the fact that there needs to be a set standard across the board

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

Media, Military/education, Corporations are more or less the same in each countries.
Corporations, however, are more free in US to behave the way they want..
(i studied Business management at uni)

US is the most liberal country (apart from education), but that liberal regime leads to economic exploitation and political sudden retardation.

US is stricter in its approach to criminals (which sometimes unfair). UK, by what i read in the economist, lets criminals who committed petty crimes away compare to other European countries.

UK gov does more for its citizens than US. US is relies simply on the tenets of liberalism, and pushes the tenets of freedom to bizarre degrees.
UK is somewhere between Libertarian and socialist, it gives freedom in the right places and regulates correctly where it is needed.

yeah (for the most part) I agree with this
and have basically said the same thing in posting on this website
I believe totally in the rights of the individual
but as part of a society you also have some responsibilities
thats why there are laws, set up by the government.
and no doubt in many countries governments have set up unfair laws
and I'm sure there are many unfair laws in the usa, uk, and australia too
but that doesn't mean we should throw out the system of law
what it means is that each individual needs to take responsibility for the society they live in and make the government accountable

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

An Example of it the Employment Laws. US has got below par employment laws. you can hire and fire as much as you want when you want. it is true that flexible economy is better, but it leads to exploitation and fear at work. and such liberalism is evil.
UK employment laws are much more human
(that is a subject , it is worth for you to research on)

I know that you now think that economic goals should come at the cost of every US citizen. NO!!! for 2 reasons:
1) Liberaterian philosophy says no to exploitation and concentrates on the individual

2) if you google, Gini Coefficient , UK , US.... you will see that UK has lower social inequality than US.
So how is that , that both nations are liberal and US has got a bigger group that is classified in the lower bottom pile of society?



UK gov reflects its culture which is strict and fair, that partially explains its politics.

Why are you telling me this?
I know all this stuff
I've been reading about/debating political topics probably longer than you have been alive
I don't understand why you are telling me this?
where have I said anything that disagrees with it?
what does it have to do with education controlled by the government?
You...um...I mean jointbuster seems to think that I'm promoting some kind of child brainwashing camp led by some sadistic cross between the spanish inquisition and the nazis
nothing could be further from the truth
governments should be watched and held accountable
I've said that over and over
but they should also be able to do their job, which is running society as representatives of the people

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

also do a research on Values/cultural shaping and education. start with researching on hitler and then pass to researching on todays education system in the middle East and far east, then pass to Russia , and then to US.

Governments that force its citizens to study about its values or participate in irrelevant "national" activities, and less of something else that allow critical thinking, have people hewed to the government line


i compared US and UK only. i didnt compare US to North Korea.
Libertarian is the most human philosophy. if you can name a philosophy which is more human, you are welcome to name it below my comment

ok we are back to hitler again
I believe jointbuster talked about him as well (have you heard of her?)
I've already addressed the hitler thing
he didn't get into power from the kindergartens up
people embraced him out of desperation

once again when have i ever said something about governments forcing national values down the throats of students?
comparing hitler and russia to the systems we have in australia and the uk (and even the usa educational system) is ludicrous
teaching a child english and maths isn't going to turn him (or her) into a communist or a nazi


your turn

[superbox]

Well lets see:

-Republican on health care: Well I lost my health insurance when Bush was ruling. Democrats have yet to prove themselves.

-Free Market is the best system out there!: Tell that to the thousands who lost jobs in America

-More Gun Control: Less guns, less people to use them. Makes sense to me.

-Higher taxes: Who the hell cares if everyone has a job.

-Gay Marriage: I'm against it, but I don't care about other people's personal stuff.

-More military stuff: We must spend money in the billions at minimum towards it because we clearly don't have a strong enough army. (that was sarcasm)

Can't say I'm a republican or democrat. Some countries do need to change their system up a bit but it doesn't make sense to me to say that there is a one system that is better than all others. That doesn't mean I'm saying that they're aren't good ones out there. Just that there isn't a best one. Every country is different and that means there are very different ways of thinking. Different systems of governments are needed to suit people.

Simplest example I can think of: Bush was elected president. The majority of Americans valued republican beliefs. Gas prices shot up, jobs were lost, a lot of s*** happened. What happened after that. People needed something different because following republicans wasn't cutting it. Democrats rule now because people's values changed. People needed something that suited their needs. When Democratic values are no longer wanted or needed it'll change again and again depending on what people need.

I can't believe how many stupid people in the U.S. there are who scream out socialism in fear with this whole health care thing. Seriously, republicans had their chance and look what happened. Only time will tell if Democrats can do something. If a system works and benefits people then I really don't see the problem. Democrat, Republican, whatever system works is fine with me.

[bane666]

yawn
ok jointbuster/kane25/whatever name you want to use

there is a difference between a totalitarian government and the governments in the usa, uk, and australia

now I agree we need to be vigilant and always hold governments accountable else they become tyrants
I've been saying all along that we need to hold them accountable
I've said repeatedly that we, as citizen of a society need to take responsibility and make our representative accountable.

but you fail to realise that the system I have been talking about works fine here in australia, and in the uk, and to a lesser extent the usa

if the australian government tried to brainwash primary or high school kids there would be a massive public outcry
parents would drag their kids out of school
teachers would refuse to teach
the media would rip the government apart
and the government would be kicked out

a couple of years ago now the australian howard government wanted to bring in some nationalistic salute the flag and sing the nation anthem at the start of the school day thing
the idea lasted all of 5 minutes and was ripped apart by the public and the media
it was dropped like a hot potato and never mentioned again

and thats how the system should work
the government isn't a power onto itself
it represents the people
the people let the government know if it steps out of line

brainwashing camps in schools (in this country) wouldn't work
parents wouldn't stand for it
teenagers have access to more information than any other time in human history
teachers wouldn't allow it
the media wouldn't allow it
it wouldn't happen without a dramatic change in the whole system, maybe if 40% of the population died in a nuclear war or plague or something extreme like that
but your system would be just as vulnerable under such circumstances


it sounds like you may have been through some cr@p at some point
and I feel sorry for you if you have
but don't let that poison you and turn you into an extremist
my ideas and opinions are just as valid as your
and I have just as much right to express them
and the simple facts are that the 3 countries I've mention have government controlled schools- and none of them have turned into communist/nazi dictatorships
(even under bush)
the people are the mechanism which prevents this
yes its different in china and russia
I doubt anyone would be brave/stupid enough to speak out about the Chinese education system- because they most likely would disappear overnight
here we criticise the government all the time
and if the government knows whats good for it, it listens, or its not the government anymore

handing the educational system over to private interests only ensure that only private interests have a say
it will benifit the few at the cost of the many


now go on.......ignore all that i've said and rant at me some more lol

[bane666]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kane25

brainwashing can happen easily, simply by letting you know what they want you to know and omitting what they dont want you to know.
dont be naive , a government wouldnt shoot its own leg. they wouldnt teach you all the political mishaps that happened in their political history from 1950 - 2000



no!!! it will benefit the individual. remember maximising the individuals interest/rights is what the liberateran philosophy is about.

"
I DO WHAT I WANT WITH MY MONEY, I GET WHATEVER EDUCATION YOU WANT, MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS."

that kind of philosophy!- works for UK

you presume too much. you think if the education gets in the hands of the government, they will apply some principles that make democracy work and by doing so satisfying the publics interest. That political interest ignores the minorities, and only harms society. the majority doesnt know what it wants, and even if it knew, it is the minority in the government that designs the educational programs, so the majority remains blind-folded.
, you cant see the crawling snakes (politicians) in the political arena (grass)


you must study a case study of China, Russia or Nazi-Germany

Politicians shouldnt dictate what you study in high school

the 2 reasons they do:
1) design a culture they want (imposing values)
2) increase economic efficiency (e.g. promote the few that are good at maths)

Many people today believe that our standard of living is due to the wonders of capitalism, and to be fair capitalism has played a major role, but not capitalism alone.

when the industrial revolution (modern capitalism) took off the standard of living for the working class dramatically dropped.
Working conditions dropped
hours became longer
young children were put to work in mines

The businessmen made out like bandits
The people weren't so lucky

And the people got p!ssed off at being mistreated
they formed unions
they demanded change
and with a lot of hard work and some blood they got it

We got minimum wage
we got better working conditions
we got sick pay and holidays

This is what has created our modern world
the vast middle class has sprung from this
the working class are better off
Many people who are in the upper class are there because of this

and on the back of these changes came education for the masses and not just the rich
the vote for women
national health care
unemployment benefits
and so on

it was the public demanding change
it was the public holding the government accountable

The problem with the modern world is people becoming complacent and lazy
But i can tell you that enough people here (in Australia) and the media spend enough time criticizing the government, sometime fairly, and some times unfairly, to keep them on their toes.
But the point is that there is free and open debate.
And although not perfect, the system works.

I guarantee you that most kids have their political opinion influenced more by their parents than by their school experience.
As they get older (late teens early 20s) they are more likely to rebel against these beliefs (as at that age they tend to rebel against their parents about everything)
and as they move into their late 20s and 30s they are more likely to return to their parents beliefs. (generally speaking)

The school system here in australia (and in the Uk) is set up with a stable base (or core) and around that is build flexibility. More flexibility and choice comes with more maturity.
Its a working balance between a foundation and choice.

I agree we have to be vigilant
I agree we have to hold the government accountable
I've been saying that all along

But the education system works both here and in the uk (for the most part)
Its not perfect, but no system is.
If there is any major criticism of the public system in australia it would be the need for more funding (in my opinion)

[shonymat]

Believe it or not, I'm an Independent, but obviously lean Democratic.

I remember when I was a kid, I wanted to be a Republican because I wanted to be rich (my naive assessment of being a Repub.), but as I got older, I grew a conscience and turned Democratic. After all the smoke cleared and the man behind the "curtain" revealed himself to me, I went Independent and will be until, 1. I want to be a zealot or 2. I give a **** again.

[WillowSun]

in terms of what we have here, its Labour or Liberal, with minor parties, the main one now being The Greens.

I'm Independant, with a lean to the green.

no surprises there.

I missed Bane's flame war above b4. long time no see.

[tomandsusan]

Usually I feel like a Republican when the Democrats are in office and then again, I feel like a Democrat when the Republicans are in office. I really didn't think it could get worse than the Bush era but it is looking like a bad dream! I am sure glad President Obama isn't worried about DOUBLE DIGIT unemployment. I guess since HE HAS A JOB, it doesn't matter to him. Geeeeezzzzzz Dudes, when are the PEOPLE going to wake up and throw all their @sses out of office and make ME der Furer!

[lazzyie]

I try to vote for whomever/whatever will be the least of two evils. I think all politicians lie to get votes, and most propositions just help maintain the status quo.

I support TOM!

[Gandolph13]

Neither, I'm Anglican!